Wrassle Discussion

Grayson:

See?

I knew that title would get your attention.

THE OFFER

Ladies and gentlemen,

As of this morning, Philly has brought to me a proposal that he's cleared and vetted with Burnt. The basics of the proposal are that if we (Federation X) would like to return to Wrassle, we would be welcomed back and provided with an Indy fed which we could proceed to operate as we saw fit. This return would also provide us with positions in Wrassle's RP based events, notably the Bar Room Brawl competition and the One World Championship competition. Although Philly and I didn't discuss it, I expect we would also be free to invite competitors from other Wrassle feds to compete in our RP based events as well, namely the King Of Wrestling and Legacy Invitational. We would not have access to the sim based competitions for obvious reasons; we're not going to be restricted to the same bonus/rewards system that their other feds are and it would provide an uneven playing field.

In addition to these details, Philly has offered to give us a voice on the EC.

In the course of our conversation, one of the details that he shared with me, and is comfortable with my sharing with you is that there has been no ATM use in Wrassle over the last 4 - 5 months. The infrastructure is still there to support it, but players are choosing not to use it. The site is being run strictly on the revenues generated by Extreme memberships.

One of the things that would be enforced if we were to make a choice to accept this offer, is that there would be absolutely NO recruiting players from Wrassle's other feds by way of Wrassle. No posting on the boards or forums. Email and instant messenger are your domain, but using Wrassle's own functionality to recruit from within Wrassle would not be allowed. Wrassle would show us the same courtesy.

I have advised Philly that I would present this to all of you, and afford you a forum to openly discuss the pros and cons of accepting this offer and making that change to how we play. I have also told him that Wrassle people are welcome to come here and share their thoughts on it as well, including the EC. Their Underground hosted a thread that many of you know about, and that thread certainly spurred on this conversation. Given the current state of e-fedding in general, its always worth it for us to be open to looking at ways to make changes of benefit to the community.

So.....

Let's hear your thoughts.

Grayson:

I'll get the party started.

I see both pros and cons to the proposal.

The Pros
~The game needs to start growing as a community, and if it doesn't we're going to see an accelerated decline in players that will eventually leave us back at 30 posts a week from the 5 of us who still play. Any type of relationship will hopefully yield a more positive relationship and perhaps foster a more engaged atmosphere where there is a rush of excitement that may lure back old players and draw more out of new players. This has the potential to do that.

~There are people who are only comfortable in a format they understand. It's possible that we'll see some of them give us a more serious look if we're an Indy fed once more.

~We could potentially use the voice that would be provided to us as a means of helping encourage Ice to get back to developing the game in a new direction. I, personally, think that we need to do that to have any hope of longterm sustained playability.

~It would be fun to send Eve Riley to The One, or Aaron Action to the BRB.


The Cons
~Trust. This isn't an EC thing. This is a Burnt/Grayson thing. I've played this game before with Indy, and it didn't end well. I'm not concerned about this ending poorly for my sake, because I know exactly who would leave if I left. I'd still be in a position to play with my friends, which is what matters to me. My concern is that the game itself would actually be damaged by any merger that didn't last. Every time a split happens, the community weakens as a whole. This community doesn't have enough new blood coming in to sustain repeated weakening. If we made the move to go back, I think we all have to believe that there's no way it can fall apart again. That's a challenge for me. (*I should note that Philly did explain the current system to me, in which he really is the buffer between Burnt and everyone else. Concerns come to him from Burnt, and he either addresses them, or advises Burnt that they aren't actually a problem. I don't know if this will make a difference, but I think it needs to be recognized.)

~Game Progression. While many of you may not see any changes in how we play, we are in the midst of ongoing coding efforts to do some key things in the near future. As I've explained before, we benefit from a friend of mine who gives us his time and effort for free. That means we don't get expert work and we don't get solutions immediately, but we do get them eventually. We're close to moving our boards to the sim site. After that we have ideas already in the works, like a tag team engine, a swerve/save engine and other features. In the long run I think the game needs to grow. A lot. I think it needs more depth, and it needs to add something fresh and unique for players, because we all get tired of doing the same thing 786 days in a row. Here, while I know the progression is slow, I know its going on and its not about marginal changes. Its about game dynamic change that will continue to engage me as a player (and I hope you.)

I won't try and argue that Hawg can't do what we're thinking about. Faster, and better, no doubt. My concern is that he isn't. It's that he sees changes to the sim engine as the goal, and not a bigger picture of a more interactive, strategic and engaging game that isn't the same experience for everyone. Diversity is the key to sustained entertainment, and we need to find a way to achieve it. Hawg is certainly capable of doing it, but my concern is that I don't know if he will. Here, I know we will.....I just don't know how long it will take.

Chance

Well I have questions like will we be on the Wrassle fourms, and what about rankings. The bigger thing for me is TRUST we were there before, and Burnt Shut us down. Yeah we have a back up now, but I don't wanna restart Chance again to have her booted after a few months.

I think the overall game is in trouble. So the guestion is is this a way to help save it?

Eve Riley:

Personally, I like the way our RP board works better than Wrassle's, especially the match containers being done as replies to the thread instead of each post being separate.

That's just a personal preference thing, though. One other thing that strikes me is that I assume we'll have to pay for the ability to use custom avatars since we'll be back on Wrassle's site and that's their revenue stream. That's not a huge thing, but it is a consideration, I think. Wrassle's system is much more restrictive graphics-wise, with no ability to use signatures on regular posts. I know they have them in the forums, but not on the RP board. Again, that's a small thing.

What are the pro's to going, other than easing the cross-entry of players from one game to the other's RP events?

The first one I can think of is their Quick Tag system and a few other things concerned with HTML handling on their system. Quick Tag functionality was the first thing I missed when I came here.

Another question that pops to mind is that I assume we'd be using the Wrassle SIM engine? Would there be a way to still include the activity bonus?

Would this make administration more time consuming, or less?

I know this is kinda disjointed and rambling. I'm just jotting down thoughts as they occur.

Now, to tackle things a bit more substantive.

I can see the pros of a move. It does bring us and the Wrassle people back together under one roof, which can only strengthen the game as a whole - IF we can all find a way to coexist on a long-term basis. I think if there's a way we can intermingle without either game leeching the other dry then it's at least worth looking at.

I can also see the cons. Having been involved for a while in the discussion of game progression, and having a basic understanding of what the long-range goals are here, I'd hate to see all of that thrown away. We have the groundwork laid for a truly engaging game experience, and it would be nice to know that the leadership of Wrassle was willing to at least facilitate the building of the game, if not buy in and take Wrassle in a similar direction.

Personally, I think it's something that shouldn't be rushed into - or out of. It is a very interesting offer, but I don't think we should move until and unless it's clearly a win-win for all sides.

Valentine:

I just can't help but think we already tried it and it failed.... it's still the same people isn't it?

I'll go where the fed goes, but I just don't really see the end result being different.

Genocide:

Would players be free to sign contracts in and out of Fed X? Or would they have to pick one or the other?

Is it possible to do a trial run or something?

Alan Scott:

Players in Fed X would not be able to transfer to another fed, and vice versa.

Why?

The financial system. We use a different bonus structure (its how we account for the activity bonus on that sim) and that difference means that any player leaving our fed would be unfairly balanced against the rest of Wrassle. So we're not talking about an actually interactive experience. Players in Fed X are in Fed X. You want to go to SHOW you have to make a new character on the main game (or reactivate one.)

Make sense?

Chance:

I get the Sim events and why we can't float back and forth, but are we going to have acess to the News board or the fourms?

The reason I ask is I think we coulg go over for RP events from here. I see the need to have us all under "one roof," but are we going to be treated like the bastard child of Wrassle? Without those how are we rebilding the comumity?

Chance:

Why doesn't Fed X come in as a wrassle fed? I don't see a differnce in that and indy on it's face other then bonus conserns and the rest. I mean Wrassle is NOT going to be stuctuely differant then Indy, and in Wrassle we get acess to the events and the rest. Like other feds

Granted we'd have to follow Wrassle rules, but I think we can get a pass on the "powerbase" given they are offering us an "Indy fed"

And it would be the best thing Wrassle gets active talent We'd get acess to CWA and other feds to start rebuilding the talent base of Wrassle

Maverick:

I'm going to be very clear on my own personal stance here.

I'm not going anywhere. If Fed X decides to go back to Wrassle....I won't be going.

I see ZERO pros and all cons. Call me jaded but that's not the case....it's just the way I honestly feel.

What Jeff, Tim, and I restarted a few years back has grown into such a wonderful place thanks to the help of people like Eric, Mike, Jordon, Randy, all the PB members and the players. Our game is built for the players and by the players. We have NEVER had issues the likes of which they've had at wrassle over the years.....because unlike other people...if we make a mistake....we admit to it and correct it.....without harming the player.

I know I don't have alot of right to talk on the subject since I haven't really done much in the way of PB duties for some time.....But I feel very strongly about what we have here.

And I'd rather not abandon it to go back to that "Other" place.

Jeff has made HUGH strides in creating the "perfect" game/System here.....and well....I'll keep it short and say his Con's are my cons.

That said, I will do what I've always done.....I will back my longtime Friend Jeff and the rest of you guys in whatever you decide. I'll support your choice to go.....But I won't be going if it comes to that.

While this is nothing personal against Burnt or Philly.....The way I see it.......We gave them a chance to keep us......And they decided not to. So we came here....and built this.....from almost nothing.

If I'm going to be honest....I see this offer coming to us for one reason and one reason only.....Extreme memberships and a new source of revenue. Again...nothing meant personally....It's honestly the first thought that comes to mind.

Am I wrong? *Shrugs*....I'm assuming that we're not going to get free extremes.

Either way, Looks like I'm going to be having another one of those hour long phone calls REAL soon Mr Grayson.

I'll try to catch you on MSN tonight when I get in from work.

Aaron Action:

First of all, I'm reminded of Einstein's definition of Insanity.

Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Having said that and having read a good chunk of the thread on the WDN forums. I can see that neither game is doing the numbers it has done in the past. Now many have said that it's a game flaw and that the split is the cause for numbers to be down. Personally, I think it's mostly a lack of interest in wrestling in general and the availability of games that require far less thought and creativity. The low end players can now play some quick click game on Facebook, or a straight up fighting game on X-Box Live. Why do they need to RP when all they want to do is have matches?

But that really doesn't go into should we go back to Wrassle.

I know the big benefit would be the possibility of getting some of the better Wrassle talent to try us out. But hasn't that happened? Haven't quite a few of the WDN pros come over, stayed a week, decided they couldn't hang with our RP amounts and left? How will that change in WDN?

I'm also concerned about the comment that we can't mention Fed X on any board but ours. So if Acid Ed goes to the BRB he can't claim that Fed X is a far better federation? Geno can't go to the OWN and run a story where he's been sent to poach Wrassle members? SHOW commissioners can talk to wrasslers from other feds and try and recruit them. Why can't we?

And being a cheap bastard, I like not having to buy an extreme membership to be able to post pictures and get all the benefits of the site. I realize that the reason we're able to do this is that Jeff is generous enough to pay for the site out of pocket (Yes, I complimented Jeff. It's his one for the year -- And it's only January), but even if he ended up charging us his cost, I'm pretty sure what each of us paid would be WAY less than what an Extreme membership costs per year.

Finally, I'm also really interested in the expansion of OUR gameplay and Jeff seems to have some really good ideas on that (Dammit! Now I used next year's compliment!). Wrassle hasn't made any substantial changes that I've heard about since long before we left. I don't see Fed X showing up being the motivational tool to get Ice to start changing stuff now.

So I guess what I'm saying is that I think we're better off on our own.

But having said that, if we turn this down, we reinforce the fact that we're elitists who think they're too good for the Wrassle players because when they made an effort, we turned them down.

In summary: If we go we may regret it. If we don't we're dicks for not going.

Maverick:

"Jeff is generous enough to pay for the site out of pocket"

I should have mentioned this when I spoke of Exterme memberships.........but yes....Jeff does.

And...I agreed with Randy's opening statement wholeheartedly.

Alan Scott

Aaron Action wrote:
First of all, I'm reminded of Einstein's definition of Insanity.

I'm also concerned about the comment that we can't mention Fed X on any board but ours. So if Acid Ed goes to the BRB he can't claim that Fed X is a far better federation? Geno can't go to the OWN and run a story where he's been sent to poach Wrassle members? SHOW commissioners can talk to wrasslers from other feds and try and recruit them. Why can't we?

Let's clarify two things.

1. Nobody said you can't mention Fed X on wrassle boards. What they said was that we couldn't recruit.

2. The reason that SHOW commishes can do it, and we can't is that we're talking about running a separate game on the same infrastructure. SHOW and CWA are part of the same game. Fed X isn't. It's really that simple.

And maybe in your case Randy that underscores your gut reaction. We're just moving where we play. The address changes, but in truth.....we could send reps to the RP events and vice versa without doing that, couldn't we? I can't answer that of course, because that's not the offer that was brought to us. This is. And we need to decide whether its right for us.

If it isn't, it doesn't mean we're closed off from doing anything with Wrassle. It just means this isn't the right thing for Fed X. I'll still happily discuss other options with Philly, or anyone else from there who wants to talk about things. I don't think saying "Thanks, but its not what we're looking for" is a slap in their face. It's a decision. Nothing more than that and nothing less.

JXS:

I still say we go and swerve the entire site 2 days later.

Kieran Crowe:

I'm a relative newcomer compared to you guys. I never saw any of the original FedX. I also wasn't part of Lotterygate, so that isn't an issue for me.

I was one of those wrassle players that came here to have a look and decided to stay and never looked back. And considering who one of the Powerbase members was at the time, it was a big call for me to make (Water well under the bridge.). I like the system here that rewards effort, even though my lack of it doesn't help me too much. I can see why wrassle would place recruitment restrictions on FedX, but without the ability of some of those guys to join in FedX, there is NO benefit to moving.

The games are different and I firmly believe they should stay that way.

However, with the size and interest of both games shrinking, some social mixers to drum up activity could help both games. A point I made during the Underground discussion. I like things here, I like how there's an evolving process in place, slow as it is, it is happening.

I'd like to see FedX competitors invited to The One. Down the track I'd LOVE to see a SHOW/FedX PPV split between both sites. I'm still disappointed to this day that the Geno/Weed Man split match we tried during NGPW's death throes fell flat.

I honestly think the best thing either game can do for the other is activity during a slow month. A special event here and there. I'll go where FedX goes, but there isn't enough pros for me to put my hand up and say "Let's go."

Alan Scott:

And we're all the better for it because you came.

I mean......what good is it for me to talk about that 6 second match if you're not here to feel shame?

Genocide:

Honestly, I kinda don't see the point. I'd like to tear down the wall and embrace the community and all that, but under that format, why bother? I could see some pros if wrestlers were able to move freely back and forth. It's one of the reasons I never made it to Fed X the first time. Seemed like a hassle.

Is the only pro the ability to send people to the BRB and OWC? Are people really dying to do rewrites and wrestle dogs? I don't see why we can't do that from here anyway. Most of us have accounts in SAFE, and if we don't, it isn't any harder for one of us to make an account than it is for the Wrassle guys who come here for our events.

I guess another pro would be better access to players, especially new players... but what happens when we start stealing all of the talent without actively recruiting? What happens when Wrassle can't win their own events anymore? If we succeed over there, will they feel it's at their expense and cut us loose again?

Maybe one day, but I think it'd be better to ease in slow. Give us spots in the OWC, BRB, and T3 (which is now an RP event.). Let's have a cross fed angle, a cross fed PPV with SHOW.

If you get a divorce, you don't get back together and get re-married without fucking a few times first.

If it's out of line for us to make a counter proposal, I'd say that's an indication of how this relationship would go.

Elijah Hasselbank

I haven't been round long enough to have REAL thoughts on this. I mean, a move is a move right

But I did try to use wrassle once, and to me, the way everything worked to signup and everything is so incredibly difficult for me to get a grasp on,

I'm not sure I'd deal well with the change, but I love playing here with you guys, so I'll adjust and stick around whatever happens.

Fats:
I just wanted to pop in here and answer some of the questions you guys have.

First, FedX would be part of Wrassle, you would have access to the Wrassle forums, the front page news fed, the ability to post your own news and events.

Second, FedX would be able to post open roster spots on the free agent forum but, calling out specific players wouldnt be allowed. And the same would go for us towards your players.

Third, and this wasn't clarified between Grayson and myself, but free agents from both FedX and Wrassle would be able to sign with one another. The way we would handle this is that the players bank accounts and stats would be reset so they can't load up and move to one or the other.

Last, FedX would be able to participate in our Wrassle-Wide RP events, and us in your RP events. However, since Fedx would not be on the same pay/bonus restrictions as the feds of Wrassle, they won't be able to participate in Sim Based Events.

This was a long discussion between myself and Burnt over this. We have throught of the possibilit of our RP events being dominated by members of FedX. We would be ok with that since we are all within the same community. You guys would be a part of Wrassle, winner our events should and would be a part of the deal.

As Grayson said, Burnt is pretty much hands off and has been for a for more alittle more than a year. The EC takes car of everything and FedX would have a say within the EC.

As for other information. One of the things we are looking into to attract new players that both Wrassle and FedX could benefit from is making Wrassle into a Facebook App. Since most of those games over there are just a click game that doesn't take alot of time to play, the way we see that working is making a Click Only Fed where the facebookers would be put. We would have someone monitor/commish that fed and book matches according to ladder records. All the while they are playing this, we would advertize the RP side of Wrassle trying to attract those looking for alittle bit more from the game.

Also, we were planning a new engine and Icehawg was beginning work on it, but got busy with real life. Now, RL might still be somewhat of an issue but with no clear cut plan where we wanted to take the new engine, I am sure the motivation isn't there for Icehawg anyway.

I talked to Grayson and told him that we can discuss his ideas of the direction he has for this engine here in FedX with Icehawg and see if its a possibility to get them implimented into the new Wrassle engine.

Contrary to what some think(which I fully understand), our motivation has absolutely nothing to do with money or creating more revenue for the site. We want to build our community for the survival of both of our games.

Also, one last thing. This Offer is just that, an offer. Its not expected to be accepted. And there will be no hard feelings if it isn't.

Stan:

I talked with Grayson some last night and I've been kind of riding the fence, but seeing this post from Fats has me leaning a little more towards moving over.

The fact that we couldn't move back and forth between feds was a sticking point for me, but now that's a non-issue. I'm also glad to see we would be able to post on the main page and even offer up generic recruiting on the free agents forum.

I guess you can count me on the glass half full on this issue as it stands.

One question I did have in regards to the sim is a repeat of Eve's earlier:

If we use Wrassle's simulator is it capable of handling our Activity guidelines for a bonus?

JXS:

Maybe we'd go back to how Fed X used to give out activity bonuses?

Use the same 5 levels, but use Wrasslebucks bonuses in increments?

IE 15K, 10K, 5K, 1K, nada

Genocide:

I guess if Storm can't be convinced to give it another try, that would be a big sticking point for me.

JXS:

Im on the fence..part of me wants to go...the other part of me wants to masterbate to jeff's kids

VonBraun:

And that right there is why we were shut down.

Kitty:

My only concern is that Federation X is allowed to remain FedX and not become some modified facsimile. That said, I don't think any of you would let that happen, because you all rock...

Whatever's decided to be best for FedX is fine by me. The only thing is I don't think the fed should rush into anything... If any doubts exist about whether or not this will work/last, then perhaps some further thought and discussion is in order. Going ahead and then leaving again, as mentioned earlier, will only hurt everything as a whole and cause further bad feelings for some...

I started not to say anything here, but wanted to make my opinion heard. Currently, I maintain a presence at Wrassle, though I'm happiest when among the rest of you here. Maybe I'm biased since most of you were around when I started and I consider most of you friends, or maybe it's just I'm always made to feel welcome and taken back, even when I've been a HUGE pain in the ass and a total spazz... Whatever happens, I'll follow along with the rest of you like always for as long as you're willing to put up with me...

I would miss being able to RP with Storm and Maverick if we went back though... *sad face*